Guess the age of this deer...

[Pro-Hunt]

If you are asking about how to tell inferior doe's I can't really say on that. I am not sure there is a way. A person can tell an older doe from a younger one though.

As far as telling inferior bucks from just younger bucks a person has to watch the herd for a few years so he can see the growth from year to year of the buck. To just go out and hunt for a few days a year it would be really hard to tell which is which.

We as a state need to get the ratio back to a 1 to 1 or at worst a 1-3 ratio of bucks to doe's. Then we will start to see an improvement in the quality of deer.

If it is not that monster standing in front of you and you want some deer to eat let it go and shoot a doe.

That should be a campaign for the G&P......
'Let him go and shoot a doe'!!

This applies to all deer hunters... bow, muzzy and rifle!! It would be nice to see how many bow hunters would pass up that 'decent' buck and shoot a doe like they want all rifle guys to do.

[Slatusa]

This applies to all deer hunters... bow, muzzy and rifle!! It would be nice to see how many bow hunters would pass up that 'decent' buck and shoot a doe like they want all rifle guys to do.[/quote]

Well I do bow hunt and have yet to shoot a buck. Mainly because I do see the "decent" bucks that still have a few years to grow. But where my problem is the rifle hunters in my area that if it has a antler on it's head it dies. I have shot alot of does tho mainly after watching the herd and seeing which does have been with the lesser bucks. Mainly to stop the gens of those lesser bucks to keep going through the herd in my area. I just wish my land owner would let me plant more evergreens for a wind break and to also block the veiw of all the road hunters who are killing most of the posible big bucks that I pass up so they can grow up some more.

[Pro-Hunt]

I do not want this to get into a rifle versus bow thing. It needs to be kept on track about getting the herd back to where it should be ratio wise. I probably should have realized the bow question would get the bow hunters all worked up. I truly did not mean for it to do that.
Here is an email I received from Kit Hams of the G&P....... (notice the % for doe harvest by weapon)

"The data you are looking for is available (partially) in the 2008 Big Game Guide.
Page 15 and 16 shows total kill and buck kill by unit. This includes landowner permits. For example, Blue Northwest 2205 deer harvested and 1798 bucks = 81.5%.

Archery and MZ don't list buck harvest, only total harvest, but Archery buck harvest was 3955 and MZ buck harvest was 2863. Total harvests are listed on page 17 (4858 for AR and 4953 for MZ).

When you to into the SCA harvests we have a fair idea who is killing does (we use date of kill). It tends to be about 40% killed by November firearm hunters, 40% by January firearm hunters, 10% by archers, 10% by muzzleloaders.

Bottom line: total antlerless harvest was 24,910 and buck harvest was 43,139. We need more doe harvest.

Your ideas are ones we have considered in the past and will likely conisder in the future. As with anything there are usually many options on getting from Point A to Point B. NGPC will continue to look at the various options avaliable to us and will select those we feel best for managing deer given the wishes of hunters, the public and landowners.

Kit Hams NGPC"

[Pro-Hunt]

To further follow up on his email. I had asked him if he felt that rifle hunters were shooting bucks during the rifle season knowing they could then shoot doe's during the late season.
I personally feel this is part of the reason why so many bucks get shot during the rifle season.

I would like to see the deer season be one long season where you can use any weapon you would like. A person would only be allowed ONE buck permit per year under this system. The G&P would allow however many extra permits they feel needed to issue but they would all be doe only. I truly feel this would get more doe's shot and be a start to getting the ratios back in line.
I also think if you spread out the season where a person could rifle hunt you would not see nearly as much of the crap going on as you do now.
I feel it would also help to open up some land access as well since all the rifle hunters would not be trying to get on land all at the same time.

Oh yeah... it would also let the bow hunter hunt the WHOLE rut!!!! LOL

[Slatusa]

I wasn't tring to make it sound like a bow VS rifle. As I am going to try to rifle this year. Main thing I was tring to point out is that there are some out there who do understand what it takes to manage a deer herd to the best of what is there. It is sad to say tho in my area no matter how hard you work on you hunting ground either big game or waterfowl some idiot seems to know how to screw up all your hard work that you have put in tring to improve the grounds and herds. I do more waterfolwing then anything. I started a small marsh project for ducks and sure enough someone found my hidden marsh and nothing wants to use the marsh after a few weeks do to them alway sneaking in and jumping bird off the marsh. Which I deal with the same thing on my bow ground do to it only being 2 miles from 1 of the major highways in the state. I have even cought guys setting up stands in there to hunt on a sunday morning because they know that the land owner and myself do go to church. It just seems that the harder a person works to improve the herd or their gounds some unethical idiot seems to screw it up.

[bowonly]

I agree we have to shoot more do's. But we also have to let the spikes and forkies live longer. That buck you shot is a hell of a deer, still dont believe he is a 1 1/2 year old buck. If we dont let the small bucks walk we are going to never have big deer. They have to get older to get bigger in most cases if not all cases. If that buck is trully 1 1/2 years old then he is a freak of nature. We must shoot lots of do's but we must also let the young guys walk. I see lots of little spikes and forkies being taken each year, why not just take a do instead?

[SPIT N ARGUE DUCK CLUB]

Well.........genetics certainly play's a part of antler development, but so does year around nutrition and stress/disease. As I have said before in this forum we believe in and actively participate in the doe harvest (17 does and 2 bucks last season) on the century old family farm in Northeast Nebraska. Now for the size of those bucks "we" as a family who live on, farm and hunt the land find it amusing that there are people who don't own the land they hunt and have seemingly never shot an immature buck and preach they only shoot 4 1/2, 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 year old deer (They seem to be born "TROPHY" hunters). There are always "individual factors" to be considered for each INDIVIDUAL hunter, such as for instance one's first deer, or one's first buck. Com'on Pro look at that deer you say was aged at 1 1/2 to 2? Who here would have passed that deer to allow it to mature? Also can anyone clarify The Game and Parks People saying the buck could have been 2 years old at the time of the kill? I mean we've hunted along time and have never seen fawns being born in November (which means there was rutting activity in May? This is what it would take for a doe to birth a fawn in November and produce a true 2 year old buck harvested in November). Hunt legally, ethically and please don't trash another hunters choice of weapon or selection of legal game. Spit.

[Cardiac]

I have two bucks on my wall that score around 130 and both were aged at 2.5, My brother shot one two years ago that was aged at 3.5 and scored 150 gross so for that deer to be 1.5 or 2.5 is very likely and I trust the word of Pro-hunt and the NG&P on this estimate of age. Antlers are the least trustworthy yet most often used visual factor taken into acount when judging a deers age. I am as guilty of it as anyone, but I'm getting better. Of the 5 deer I have mounted the smallest is also the oldest, a 4.5 year old 4x4 that scores 117.

[bowonly]

[

This applies to all deer hunters... bow, muzzy and rifle!! It would be nice to see how many bow hunters would pass up that 'decent' buck and shoot a doe like they want all rifle guys to do.[/quote]

I know of more bowhunter that shoot does than I do rifle hunters. Not trying to put a sour smell in the air but I would bet $ on it that if you were to look at the harvest statistics there would be more mature bucks taken by bowhunters and more does taken by bowhunters. It would be nice to walk into a meaklocker during rifle season and instead of seeing 100s of basketracks see 100s of does. Let em grow shoot a doe.

[Pro-Hunt]

Bowonly; read my post above. Kit Hams from the G&P provided the data in his email to me. It shows the percentages of buck to doe harvest for each weapon. Rifle hunter account for 80% of the doe's shot with archery and muzzy at 10% each. It is in one of the posts above so go back and check it out.

[Pro-Hunt]

I got a little more time so I will add some more.
Going by the numbers Kit produced just a hair over 81% of the deer shot by bow hunters are bucks. If you believe these are all old mature bucks then I have some ocean front property in Arizona I want to sell you!!! LOL

Muzzy hunters shoot just over 42% bucks.
So when it comes right down to it bow and rifle hunters(during the regular rifle season) are the worst for wanting to shoot just bucks if you go by the percentages that the G&P gave out.

I personally believe a LOT of rifle hunters shoot a buck during the regular season because they know they will be shooting some doe's during the late season.

I fully agree that we need to let the little bucks go but when it comes down to the numbers the bow and rifle guys are equally as guilty of wanting to shoot bucks!!!

I posted the following quote earlier but think it needs posted again(if you would support this; call the G&P and let them know)...............

"I would like to see the deer season be one long season where you can use any weapon you would like. A person would only be allowed ONE buck permit per year under this system. The G&P would allow however many extra permits they feel needed to issue but they would all be doe only. I truly feel this would get more doe's shot and be a start to getting the ratios back in line.
I also think if you spread out the season where a person could rifle hunt you would not see nearly as much of the crap going on as you do now.
I feel it would also help to open up some land access as well since all the rifle hunters would not be trying to get on land all at the same time.

Oh yeah... it would also let the bow hunter hunt the WHOLE rut!!!! LOL"

[Pro-Hunt]

"Bottom line: total antlerless harvest was 24,910 and buck harvest was 43,139. We need more doe harvest."

This is another quote from Kit's email to me. I truly feel we need to limit the number of buck permits to ONE a year but if this is done I really think the season should be one long season use whatever weapon you choose.

The main thing this points out is we ALL need to try and inform people of the need to shoot more doe's.

[HAMMER]

I can not see one long season working for anybody other than the rifle hunter. You will have guys everywhere ticked off at the next guy for one reason or another. Not to mention the poaching and safety problems that you would have to face. I can not see the G&P approving something like this. The wardens would be running circles trying to enforce game laws that apply to three different seasons all at once.

If you want to have the bucks grow, than the state should look at putting a point restriction out there, IMO. Maybe even have a earn a buck program.

One thing they did do right this year is put a free bonus doe tag in some units.

[buffalorancher]

First, I don't buy that deer being a yearling but I would believe it being a super 2 year old. If the guy said it was 1.5 to 2 that would mean he thought it was born between Nov. and May. which doesn't work very well and there is a huge difference between a yrl. and a 2. This just shows you how hard it is for those deer in the 180+ range to get that big because even a trophy hunter will shoot one before it's reached it's full potential. There's nothing wrong with it, just the way it is.

I am fortunate to have a decent sized piece of land that is very good deer hunting and I have final say on what is or isn't shot. It's nice to see people concerned about the health and quality of the herd and I can tell you that the attitudes of hunters is SLOWLY but surely getting better about does. The best advice I can give somebody after 12 years of intense management is to shoot all the does you can and let the bucks get as old as they can. It is this simple. You cannot influence geneitics except in possibly very minute amounts. Most bucks will be a nice trophy after 3.5 years of age. No matter how many does you shoot, your neighbor will not shoot any and it will be hard to tell if you have done any good. We shot almost 30 last year and I can't tell any difference this year but some of this is on the lack of coyotes. Also, be aware that even with good practices in place, there aren't that many big deer out there. We have four miles of river and we keep track of the bucks fairly well. Very seldom is there more than 2 or possibly 3 bucks that will score 150 or better at any one time. Pro-Hunt, keep at it as people will continue to change their habits and our hunting will improve.

[huntman025]

I think if I have read the new permits right for 2008 you will see doe harvest increase for AR and MZ. I believe there is going to be a bonus doe tag on each of those permits. I know for myself I have shot my season choice does with a rifle because that was my way to hunt with my wife during rifle season and carry a weapon, plus put more meat in the freezer. And if I was out hunting coyotes in January and a doe was convienent I would shoot them with the rifle. I probably will not be purchasing a bonus doe tag this year because I don't need that many deer. My area of the state most of your rifle tag "holders" just go out for the fun of hunting with friends and really don't care what they shoot. I know I always smile when the corn is not out come rifle season. That usually ensures a few more bucks will make it another year. On the flip side I have people that archery hunt the same property that I do and they will shoot the first thing that walks by whether a doe or small buck. You are always going to have people that will shoot small bucks. No matter the amount of education some people will still shoot small bucks. The only way that will change is if it is done by point restricition and even then you will probably have some of your best genetics killed out. I have seen some very nice 4x4's that were 1.5 yrs. Not like prohunts but 12 in wide deer with long spindly tines. You know those in a couple years will be very nice deer. I guess we can all just do the best we can and feel we should do, hope for the best and have fun.